untitled
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:57:09 -0400
From: Mike Ryder <mike@mryder.com>
Subject: Re: the book - part 2
To: Wayne [Family member A]
Cc: [Family member B]
Carrying on ....
>> You ask if we are all created in God's image then
why are we all different? I have two
>> possible answers. Firstly to summarise the
view of "Believers Bible Commentary" God is
>> Spirit - 3 parts - trinity. Man is 3 part -
spirit, soul and body. there is no thought of
>> physical likeness here. Secondly the
biblical account in Genises says man, namely Adam,
>> was created in God's image but because he sinned
sin entered man and because of that man's
>> fallen nature no longer resembles that of
God. Also due to sin we have disease, death etc
>> in our world.
It seems that there are so many interpretations and reinterpretations
that it is possible to read anything into biblical accounts.
Sometimes it's literal, sometimes it's symbolic. The
interpretation is up to the reader. I'm tempted to compare this
to a horoscope where predictions are 'recognised' after they occur or
are self-fulfilling.
As I read your possible explanation, I think you are saying that man is
responsible (created?) bad stuff disease, death, etc because of
sin. This makes no sense. Following the creationist line of
thinking surely the creator is solely responsible for all biological
creations (and all other creations). Did I miss something?
Ergo the creator created disease. The creator also must have
defined sin and included death in the circle of life. It would be
an ugly, stagnant place without these things. Let's think for the
moment about bodily functions. As I recall there were good things
to eat in the garden of Eden (besides the forbidden apple), so I'm
going to assume that A&E ate food. If there was no death and
decay how did this work? Did they eat inanimate objects? Surely
fruit and veges are life (creations). Was it okay that they died?
And what happened to A&E's waste - surely it had to
decompose? It seems to me that to imagine a world with no death,
disease and decay would require a world totally sterile and
stagnant. There could be no change, no danger, no growth,
etc. Basically a place of inanimate objects in a vacuum.
I need to stop on this topic, because I'm sure I've already offended
your beliefs deeply. Just to summarise, my feeling is that to
give the perfection --> sin --> death concept any credence is to
suspend logical integrity and rational thought.
>> You pose an interesting question about our choice
of religion being forced upon us due to
>> our choice in the environment we belong to.
I agree with you we are a product of our
>> environment. However the gospel has reached
a lot of nations now - although i will grant
>> you not all. it does seem a bit tough on the
people there i agree. However just because
>> all you know is one religion does that make it the
right one? I guess the crux of the
>> matter is - is the bible reliable? I think
there is plenty of evidence that supports it
>> is. Firstly there is creation all around us
that shows the print of its author (Rom 1 -
>> 18-20) , there is bible numerics that is
supposedly unrefuted i am told, there is
>> archeological sightings of certain biblical things
like the ark, and the city of Soddom
>> and Gomorrah. The documented history of
Christ, anniversaries we celebrate as a society -
>> his birthday, death reserection - would these
celebrations originate from nothing or did
>> something take place that started them? Then
there are the scriptures themselves - one
>> third is prophecy - most already fulfilled.
It is also important to mention Israel as
>> that is the nation this faith started with.
If you are interested here are some
>> scriptures relating to Israel and prophecy
>> 1. Deut 28.64 talks about the disobedience of
Israel leads to them being scattered - the
>> were of course
>> 2. Deut 28v 65-66 says they will have no rest for
their souls while scattered - this is
>> true, the worst being holocaust
>> 3. Jer 16v14-16 God will restore Isreael to their
land - this happened 1948
>> 4. Isaiah 27v6 Desolate Israel will blossom.
This has now happened - the once barren
>> israel is now a major producer in the world of
fruit
>> 6. Zach 12v2-3 israel will be a burden to the
world - israel is a burden with all the
>> fighting around it, land grabbing etc for such a
tiny nation
As you say - "the crux of the matter - is the bible reliable". I
gather you think it is. I disagree in the strongest terms.
"Firstly there is creation all around us that shows the print of its
author". This is an example of meaningless phraseology.
It's akin to Dr Jeffrey's argument that reads we see stuff everywhere
therefore the Christian god must have created it. How this makes
anything reliable beats me.
Bible numerics? I'm loosely aware of the bible code. Dad
even sent me a book on it a few years ago. I confess that I did
no more than glance at it. It seems that every few years some new
biblical revelation comes along, and then slowly sinks into
oblivion. I'm not aware of what bible numerics is, so cannot give
it the time and discussion it merits. Perhaps you could enlighten
me?
Archeololgical evidence. Certainly historical places, events and
settings in the bible are real. The same can be said of most
books and plays. That London exists doesn't make the Harry Potter
books true.
Anniversaries.
1. Many of these are usurped from pagan rituals. eg easter.
What do bunnies and chocolate eggs have to do with Christianity?
I'm certainly no expert in this but spring is the time for the pagan
festival of new life (bunnies, eggs, etc).
2. The Christian church has established many, many 'Christian
signifigant' days in the calendar. That western society has has taken
one or two of them (I can only think of xmas - and poss easter) and
declared them national holidays speaks to the hisroy of Christian-based
society. Remember not too long ago it was a crime not to be a
Christian in many parts of the world.
I do not want to argue scripture. It's too vague and open to
reinterpretation to have any reliable meaning. Related to your
quotes.
There are many factors leading to the scattering of people throughout
the world. 'Disobedience' is vague and simplistic.
'no rest for their souls' how many ways could that be
interpreted? I think most peoples of the world have had 'restless
souls'. The holocaust is one of many many atrocoties committed
aginst different peoples in history. Unforunately genocide is not
an uncommon occurance in history. The holocaust might be the
biggest recorded (those Germans are well organized), but it's not the
most recent. Others that spring to mind are Rwanda, Albania (early
1900s), Dafur (sp? going on now), the crusades, etc.
Actually the Christian European countries started shipping unwanted
Jews (religious intollerance) to Palestine in the 20s (I could be wrong
about the date). Numers grew to a point where religions clashed
(more intollerance) and the Palestinians actively resisted any more
Jewish refugees. Eventually through force the Jewish state was
formed. What a disaster that has turned out to be. The
establishment of Israel can easily be argued to be a self fulfilling
prophesy. (My religious book tells me that this is my homeland
and I must go there - therfore I go there. Ergo prediction
fulfilled.
Blossom? Literal interpretation? Fruit blossom. I
didn't know that Israel exported fruit other than dates and
olives. Perhaps you can add some details. What
fruits? What do you mean by major? It seems they are likely to
have a good climate for horticulture if they can irrigate effectively.
Burden. Many places are a burden to the world. Point of
view and context are important here too.
>> Anyhow I did not mean to conduct a bible study but
if you are interested in why we shoud
>> believe the bible over another faith including
evolution, i think prophecy about israel is
>> a good reason but there are other reasons too.
Evolution is not a faith - it's a scientific theory. Please do
not confuse the two.
I wonder what holy books from religions other than Christianity
contain. Their followers are as avid as Chrisians in believing
they are right and everyone else is wrong. The whole thing makes
me sad. So much blood and violence over such a silly question.
>> Any how good luck with chapter two if you decide
to press on. You never know you may
>> mutate into a creationist by the end of the
book!!!!!!
As I mentioned I did 'read' the rest of the book. One more
concept I'd like to discuss:
Irreducable Complexity.
This is a concept that I had not really considered so did not have any
knowledge with which to evaluate Dr Jeffrey's assertions. On the
face of it his arguments looked good. But I was suspicious.
He had shown himself to have a strong bias and to misrepresent
arguments and theories to suit his stated purpose.
Sure enough a little research showed that irreducable complexity
as he portrayed it is a fallacious argument. He first dismisses
as 'so unlikely as to make it impossible' the very argument that
theoretically explains how symbiotic and 'irriducably complex'
arrangements can occur.
Finally, while I was doing a little research I thought I'd see what
reviews were available of this book. I expected to find the usual
polarized opinions (and did), but hoped to find something
objective. The closest I got was at
www.all-about-christian-books.com/. I think htis is a Christian
site - but at least it recognises a lemon when it sees it.
In the reviews section
Phrases like
A Mile Wide but Only A Few Feet Deep
There are Far Better Alternatives
The book is ultimately unconvincing and serves as an example of how
things should not be done
I strongly suggest skipping over this book.
I enclose the full review for your consumption.....
Creation
By Grant R. Jeffrey
Remarkable Evidence of God's Design
Dr. Grant Jeffrey explores the evidence from astronomy, cosmology and
biology that provide strong evidence for God and His divine design in
the universe around us. Beginning and ending with a critique on the
weaknesses and inadequacies of Evolution, Creation is a broad look at
the scientific evidence that strengthens and supports faith in God.
Dr. Jeffrey holds a Doctorate in Biblical Literature, and states his
purpose for the book right at the start:
"I trust that the information in Creation will instill in you a
profound sense of wonder at God's wondrous creation, and that it will
restore your confidence in the total authority and accuracy of the Holy
Scriptures."
As the author of 21 books and considered on Bible prophecy and
apologetics, this book is an open attack on Evolution and aims to show
readers - whether Christian or not - the weaknesses of Evolution and
the infallible accuracy of the Bible.
Structure of the Book
* The Wonders of God's Creation
* Astronomy Reveals the Intelligent Design of the Universe
* Anthropic Principle - The Evidence of God's Fine-Tuning
* DNA - the Language of God
* The Collapse of Evolution
* Intellectuals Question Evolution
* The Scientific Validity of the Bible
* Meeting the Designer
A Mile Wide but Only A Few Feet Deep
While I agree with the author's conclusions, I strongly dislike the
presentation of the facts and the manner in which the author presents
his argument.
Dr. Jeffrey's background is not in the sciences, and this is evident at
multiple points throughout the book to those who are familiar with the
sciences in question. There are just enough inaccuracies in the facts
as presented or in the manner in which they are used to support the
overall argument to make it easy for a seeker or nonbeliever to
discount everything else the author is saying. The scientific
inaccuracies are just enough to cast a shadow on the author's
credibility and authority.
Were it not for the factual inaccuracies, a more serious problem is the
glib and superficial manner in which the scientific facts are used to
support the overall argument of the book. Facts are presented like a
shopping list, without a structure behind them to make them a coherent,
powerful whole.
To borrow a phrase from the author himself, the book feels like a river
a mile wide but only a few feet deep. Other books discussing the
scientific evidence and rational arguments for God's existence and
design in the universe cover a fairly wide swath of disciplines.
Unfortunately, Grant Jeffrey doesn't manage to pull it off with this
book.
While the book's purpose is noble and the author clearly impassioned,
the book comes across like the street-corner or cocktail-party ranting
of a stereotypical "Bible-thumping ignoramus." I am not suggesting that
the author himself is such, simply that this is the impression conveyed
by the manner in which the facts and arguments are presented in this
book.
A logical and rational argument is supported by many elements, like the
legs of a table supporting the tabletop itself. A strong, convincing
argument rests on stout and substantial legs. Due to the superficial,
seemingly unconnected manner in which numerous facts are thrown into
the mix, it feels as though the argument in this book rests on a
thousand toothpicks.
A correct conclusion presented and supported in this way - solid though
it may be in actuality - simply does not feel substantial or convincing.
Considering the author's stated purpose to show nonbelievers and
believers alike the fallacy of Evolution and veracity of the Bible, the
reader's perception of the argument is a critical element in whether
the argument will be accepted. Unfortunately, this book doesn't convey
the right perceptions and is unlikely to accomplish the author's stated
purpose with an educated audience that isn't impressed by the pure
volume of facts thrown at it.
There are Far Better Alternatives
There are far better alternatives for those seeking to learn more about
how the Universe itself declares the Glory of the Lord. There are far
better books available for those who want to learn about the scientific
evidence for God and Intelligent Design.
Lee Strobel's The Case for a Creator provides a good overview of the
evidence and arguments for Intelligent Design from a number of
scientific disciplines. It is a good book to start with for those who
are new to learning about the scientific and rational evidence pointing
towards God.
Jonathan Wells' Icons of Evolution provides a far more in-depth, far
more thorough, far more convincing discussion and argument about the
weaknesses of Evolutionary Theory and the ideological (rather than
scientific) basis for the continued support for Evolution.
Michael Behe's Darwin's Black Box provides a very thorough biochemical
discussion of Evolution's inability to explain the complexity, order
and design at biology's most fundamental level.
Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay Richards present in The Privileged Planet a
far more thorough and convincing discussion of how the Anthropic
Principle manifests itself in everything from the cosmos on a grand
scale to the earth under our feet.
With the exception of Darwin's Black Box, all of the above books cover
a evidence from range of disciplines, yet avoid the "mile wide but only
a few feet deep" presentation in Creation. All of the above are easy to
read, easy to understand, without coming across like a bull in a china
shop the way Jeffrey comes across in Creation.
God's Truth doesn't need to be bludgeoned into someone's head. In fact,
trying to force-feed a reader the truth is counterproductive.
Think about your own experience - when someone in the past tried to
force something down your throat (figuratively), you must have
reflexively gone on the defensive and rejected what they were arguing.
Yet, think of the many times in which you were convinced by someone who
presented the facts to you in a calm, confident manner giving you time
to think about it and then prove to yourself that they were correct.
If you're a seeker or nonbeliever looking to find out more about how
science and rational thought support Christianity, you will be far
better served by the books I have listed above and others.
If you're a Christian looking to learn more about how to witness to
others and show them how science and rational thought support
Christianity, stay away from this book. It's a good example of how not
to come across. It's an example of how being well-intentioned and armed
with a battery of facts isn't enough when the facts aren't presented
the right way.
God's Truth - in Scripture, in personal experience, or in science and
the heavens above - doesn't need to be presented with force to be
effective. Indeed, it shouldn't be.
Summary
* The book aims to help reaffirm and revitalize Christian
faith in the population at large by convincing seekers and Christians
that the Bible can be fully trusted in all matters, even the scientific
* Presents the scientific evidence for Evolution's
inadequacies and fallacies, and the scientific evidence for God's
existence and Intelligent Design
* Covers a range of scientific disciplines, but the
author's nonscientific background handicaps his presentation of his
argument
* The book is ultimately unconvincing and serves as an
example of how things should not be done
* I strongly agree with the author's intent and
conclusion, but that argument is far better made and the conclusion far
better supported by a variety of other books
* I strongly suggest skipping over this book.
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